Soldier-scholar Colonel John R. Elting, U.S. Army (Retired), is the author of the widely-acclaimed masterpiece, Swords Around A Throne: Napoleon's Grande Armee. Here, in the fourth interview conducted by June K. Burton for Napoleon magazine, Elting chats about his early years growing up in Montana, his work in the Civilian Conservation Corps during the Great Depression, and his experiences in World War II that ultimately changed the direction of his life: he became a self-taught historian. Thus, we are offered a chance to see a glimpse of the times and the personal qualities that made his remarkably successful teaching and writing career possible.

To date, Col. Elting has been the author, co-author, editor, translator or contributor to seventeen books. These include: The West Point Atlas of American Wars (1959); A Military History and Atlas of the Napoleonic Wars (1964); The Battle of Bunker's Hill (1975); The Battle of Saratoga (1977); Military Uniforms in America: Years of Growth, 1796-1851 (1977); Battles for Scandinavia (1981); Military Uniforms in America: Long Endure: The Civil War Period 1852-1867 (1982); American Army Life (1982); A Dictionary of Soldier Talk (1984); The Superstrategists (1985); Napoleonic Military History: A Bibliography (1986); Napoleon's Marshals (1987); Military Uniforms in America: The Modern Era (1988); Amateurs to Arms! A Military History of the War of 1812 (1991); and Military Life Under Napoleon (1995). A new paperback edition of Swords Around A Throne (originally published by The Free Press in 1988) has recently appeared (Da Capo, 1997), and a second, more decorative British edition is scheduled for a September 1997 publication.

Col. Elting (born 15 February, 1911) has been married to the former Ann M. Clancy for sixty-one years. The Eltings had dachshunds for many years but now enjoy feeding birds and identifying species. They reside in Cornwall-on-Hudson, New York. Those who have read Col. Elting's colorful masterpieces, which are sprinkled with good humor and flashes of sharp insight, will also recognize his quick wit, zestful military prose, strong sense of duty, and ironclad self-discipline still prevailing in this interview which he answered by correspondence in a typically crisp style.

What is your official, principal position today?

ELTING: No "official" position. Merely a retired professional soldier -- since 1968 --who works at being a historian.

According to your resume, from 1957-1965, you were Associate Professor, Department of M. A. &E. Please explain your position to the readers.

ELTING

: Military Art and Engineering -- branch of the academic side of the U.S. Military Academy, West Point, New York. Military Art is analytical military history -- emphasis not on who won, but how they did it. We taught First Class (seniors) cadets.

You were decorated six times. How did you earn these medals?

ELTING: None of these really "important." Ribbons look nice however. Bronze Star -- Bit a dog. Picked up a couple of wounded medics who walked into a German mortar concentration while on a private unofficial looting expedition. Dragged them under cover and administered first aid. 3 Commendations Ribbons -- Can't recall exactly -- and not worth looking up. Were for being a little more than generally useful -- development of new extension courses, methods of instruction, and the like. No bloodshed involved. Purple Heart -- Failure to mind my own damn business. Had a billeting party which corps ordered into territory still occupied by Germans, including SS school troops. Moved according to orders, kept moving when first German outposts surrendered; encountered SS with tanks. Got most of my people out, but my jeep couldn't outrun a 75 mm shell. Legion of Merit -- Commonly known as the "Field-grade Officer's Good Conduct Medal". Awarded to all retiring senior officers who have kept their noses reasonably clean.

I understand that you currently serve on the Board of Trustees of a military museum?

ELTING: I do have the honor to have been designated one of the three Ad Vitam trustees to the "Committee of Management" of the Anne S. K. Brown Military Collection at Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island. Anne was a member of the old Providence Brown family.

Have you received any special awards, titles, medals, or honorary degrees for your work?

ELTING: No. Mostly royalties -- which, at least to a Scot, are much more satisfying!

Colonel ELTING, if we were planning to rendezvous, how would I be able to recognize you in a crowd?

ELTING: Well, I could carry a sign, or a banner!

Let me try again, how would you describe your physical appearance?

ELTING: At 86, am gray-haired. Eyes blue. Trouble maintaining former military posture, and former 70+ inches has begun shrinking down. Use a cane at times.

Tell me about your parents' education.

ELTING: Can't remember just what my parents' education included, know that my mother attended some sort of "academy" long enough to qualify as a country school teacher. It would have been what Illinois farm children got in the late 19th Century. But both, especially mother, were literate and our house was full of books -- can recall the translation of Victor Hugo's work. (Naturally I read the description of Waterloo in Les Miserables -- took me years to get all of Hugo's thunderous inventions out of my mental processes.) Also had Dickens' and (for some reason) George Eliot's works, and the Harvard Classics/Five Foot Bookshelf.

Didn't you grow up in Billings, Montana?

ELTING: Billings was a prosperous town (population about 15,000 up to the late '40s) with excellent schools -- almost all children of my age went to high school and a good many went on to college. It was open country then -- good bird hunting an hour or so's drive from home. I had my horse -- or rather a series of them, the last being (we bought him in all innocence) a cast rodeo strawberry roan that taught me to get up off the ground and climb back aboard to try my luck again. Today, Billings has over 100,000 people, one-way streets, even some industrial smog. Too bad. My Father worked originally for US Reclamation Service -- later was a "Clerk" (business manager) for the Billings schools.

What motivated your original interest in history in general?

ELTING: It just came naturally. My parents bought me that famous Books of Knowledge, even before I could read. Their pictures grabbed at my imagination. My father dubbed me "Old War and Animals".

In French Revolutionary/Napoleonic history per se?

ELTING: Even at that time, Napoleon and his white horse (I loved horses) especially attracted me. Later, at USMA (West Point), the need to rewrite much of the Napoleonic material then in use there really got me into research on the subject.

Did you plan your career or did it result from a series of accidents?

ELTING: Mostly accident -- to the extent of having capabilities noted and future assignments based on past accomplishments. As Cromwell said, "No man goes so far as he who does not know where he is going".

I know that you were in the Montana National Guard 1929-32, apparently while you were going to college to study zoology. Were you planning to be a doctor, scientist, or teacher?

ELTING: In those days, the Guard was glad to get your name on the roster -- if you could make summer camp or a few drills, fine. I was going to be an entomologist and combat insect plagues. Was a bit useful -- learned to identify clothes moths, cockroaches, ticks, and other pests.

Then you were in the Civilian Conservation Corps as a Company Officer, 1933-1936. Tell me about working for the CCC. How was it organized?

ELTING: CCC companies were organized on a military basis -- a captain and one or two Lieutenants. Captains at first Regulars, then reserve officers on active duty.

In what projects were you engaged?

ELTING: Usual chores for a 2nd lieutenant who (according to Old Army lore) "knew nothing and did everything". Mess officer, supply officer, athletic officer, district railhead officer, twice camp construction officer. Montana, Utah, Nevada -- all very educational.

There's a gap in your resume between leaving the CCC in 1936 and being a ROTC Instructor at Oregon State from 1940-42. What did you do between 1936 and 1940?

ELTING: Taught biology in Billings High School.

How did you make the leap from being a CCC officer and biology teacher to becoming a career soldier?

ELTING: Very simply -- by 1940 a gentleman named Hitler had created such a fuss that FDR felt he needed my assistance. He called, and I harkened and came.

By 1942, you were part of the 5th Armored Division; and, in 1943-44, you were instructing at the Armored School and preparing field manuals. How/when/where did you gain such expertise to qualify you for these duties?

ELTING: Training -- if you were lucky as an inactive reservist, you could get two weeks active duty training every year or so. Had to take extension courses for promotion. On active duty, attended Artillery and Armored schools. Mostly, you learn by doing. On these field manuals, I was writer for two wounded veterans of North Africa and Italy. Also had studied enemy armor, tactics, etc., so could contribute a little.

Colonel ELTING, you mentioned rather modestly that you were wounded in World War II. Can you elaborate?

ELTING: Was wounded 1 April, 1945 outside the village of Sande, during the closing of the Ruhr pocket. Corps headquarters had ordered the 8th Armored Division to send a billeting party into the city of Bad Lippstad. 8th Armored sent it down to us in CCB ["Combat Command B" -- a regimental combat team or brigade battle group with a mixed force of tanks, infantry in armored personnel carriers, engineers, and artillery].

Our excellent Assistant S-3, whose job that normally was, having backed his jeep over a German Riegel mine [high explosive R Mi 43 bar mine used on roads and in open country], the job was passed to me. Took off with a few jeeps and light trucks -- nothing heavier in the weapons line than a light machine gun.

Unfortunately, Corps had been misinformed -- Germans still had the designated area. After rolling through almost empty country and acquiring a few pistols from German stragglers, we came to Sande and found it held by a startled Luftwaffe detachment. Were separating them from their hardware (instead of having sense enough to realize Corps was balmy and so halting further back at a defensible bridge) when the SS Panzer Grenadier School at Paderborn sent a column to join our party. Got most of my people and vehicles out, but a German tank shot my jeep out from under me. Got away across country, but stumbled into a retreating German light AA battery. They left me and the GI I'd been half-carrying in a German field hospital, which our gallant Air Force bombed during the night -- fortunately, they were inaccurate as usual. Odd note -- German surgeon told me that he was almost out of tetanus shots, but he'd give them to us if we thought we needed them. He was pleasantly amazed to learn that all Americans had been so treated. Put us to bed with big mugs of champagne -- GI aroused mirth of German senior orderly by remarking that "This cider sure tastes funny!"

Next morning they surrendered the hospital to me. Passed to U.S. hospital; landed in a ward without light, heat, or (except for one overworked, devoted orderly) care. Left more or less informally and made my way back to CCB. We were in the Hartz Mountains when the war ended. Nothing showy. Remember part of the 116th Panzer Division -- a short column of horse-drawn, boat-shaped Russian farm wagons. The drivers carefully fed their horses one last time before passing into a west-bound column of POWs.

We were then hustled into Czechoslovakia to relieve the hard-used 2nd Infantry Division. GIs looked forward to that "fraternization" that Eisenhower's concept of himself as a crusader for righteousness had forbidden in Germany. Turned out that the Czechs took a dim view of sharing their womenfolk. About our only entertainment was the antics of our Soviet "comrades" across the line; they truly were something out of Noah's ark, only a lot more devious and vicious than any animal.

And so eventually we came home through one of the "cigarette" camps. General Patton came in his true Blood and Guts style to tell us "goodbye" as we left Czechoslovakia. It was a raw meat summons to be our own men once we returned to civilian life, without letting politicians snow us about all the wonderful things they had done and might do for us. He was loudly applauded. Fortunately, no minion of either the mass media or Eisenhower's headquarters was present.

After combat duty, did the army provide you any period of "rest and relaxation"?

ELTING: Sometime around the end of the war I had a week's leave in Cannes. The mistral was in full blast, there was no heat in the elaborate hotel where we were billeted, and the food was mostly "C" rations which the French chef frequently managed to scorch -- think he felt insulted by having to work with such material. But it was a rest and a pleasant place when the wind wasn't blowing. (Going through on our Napoleonic Alliance tour last May, I tried to spot a familiar landmark, but the post-war building had overwhelmed them.)

You list duty with the "Philippine Scouts" in 1945-1947. Please explain what this was.

ELTING: Philippine Scouts were part of US Army -- Philippine enlisted men and roughly 50% Philippine officers. In '45-'47, formed the 12th Infantry Division (PS) and a few minor units. Very professional once we had them organized -- a privilege to serve with them. The Scouts were formed in 1901, but largely destroyed in WW II. Should have kept them (were disbanded) -- could have been invaluable in Korea.

How did you land your first job as a historian and how long did it take? How old were you then?

ELTING: Assignment to the U.S. Armed Forces Information School's Department of History, Economics, and Government in 1948 -- was thirty-seven at that time. Came as routine assignment, based -- as I recall -- on a certain knack for writing I had developed while serving with the Board of Review, Research, and Revision of the Armored School, Fort Knox, Kentucky in 1943-1944.

How would you compare the state of the historical profession in the U.S. today to when you began your career?

ELTING: When I first started writing, during the late 1940s, there were few Napoleonic period historians in the U.S. and not many in England. Few of those now strike me as real scholars. (Exceptions would be men such as Colonel Ramsay W. Phipps -- Armies of the First French Republic and Henry Adams The War of 1812 -- and Spenser Wilkinson The Rise of General Bonaparte -- and Dr. Harold T. Parker and Charles Oman. Also should add the American soldier-historian, John C. Ropes.)

The number of writers has increased -- it would be too flattering to say the "number of historians". There has been an explosion of pot-boiler scribblers, especially in England, once it was evident that Americans of late would buy anything with "Napoleon" in its title, especially if it were advertised as including a quick peek into Bonaparte bedrooms. We have even had outright fraud -- particularly the works of the soi-disant "Sir Hamilton-Williams".

Among academic historians, whether unreconstructed '60s flower children trying to rewrite history or not, there was/is an increasing tendency to recast military affairs as matters of economic, social, and philosophical developments -- producing thereby a good deal of interesting and sometimes useful information, but too often relegating (if not forcibly cramming) the decisive shooting/marching/killing aspect of the business into a sub-cellar, from which only an occasional muffled sound escapes. One gathers that they deplore such vulgar doings and don't intend to encourage people to either read or write about them. Their products may be erudite, but....

As a minor instance, we have the plague of footnotes -- as one self-anointed authority pronounced, no statement can be accepted unless it is specifically supported by some reference. Well, an author should state his sources, but when footnotes threaten to swallow the text, books have gone from the scholarly to the merely silly. If you question my statements, get hold of my source material and do your own digging!

Today, we still have the flow of penny dreadfuls -- and truly dreadful some of them are. Much of the fault lies with publishers who know nothing of history, make no effort to determine if a book's contents are accurate, and concern themselves only with probable sales.

There also is the new problem of the electronic age -- the fact that anyone can collect masses of information in a relatively short period of time. Frequently, these new authors fail the Biblical injunction to "get wisdom, and with all thy getting, get understanding". They amass material, but they lack the background and knowledge to evaluate and comprehend it. And the result is another publisher-touted mishmash of fact, fiction, and fable -- possibly of some use to the veterans among us, but a whole maze of booby traps for our beginners.

As a final grouse, it's sadly obvious that writing skills are declining. Neither a Ph.D. nor the latest model of word processor can make-up for the semi-literacy that so many American schools seem to consider sufficient. (Years of consultant work for Time-Life and Reader's Digest books have left me quite positive on this subject.) We write about stark life and death, high valor and grim endurance -- and our words should have rhythms worthy of them.

Please describe your major research? What made you choose this subject?

ELTING: Of necessity, I became a "generalist", since my first military history teaching duties covered the whole history of warfare. Eventually, by personal choice, I came to concentrate on Napoleon and our Civil War.

Do you have any research assistants? Co-authors? Or have you always worked alone?

ELTING: Research assistants -- only as I swap information with friends. Co-editors -- Michael MacAfee on last two MUIA books; Dan Cragg and Ernest Deal on Dictionary of Soldier Talk. Have always worked alone otherwise -- with the important exception that Ann, my helpmate for 61 years, has always read my text -- and, if she found it hard to comprehend, told me so.

Have you produced graduate students?

ELTING: Not guilty.

Who do you think are today's leading Napoleonic scholars/writers in the U.S.A. and abroad?

ELTING: Actually, there is no one top expert on the whole of Napoleonic history -- maybe a half-dozen of us, like the angels of medieval theological disputation, dance on the head of that particular pin. This is impossible to answer without hurting some friend's feelings. On the academic side, I am particularly impressed by the works of Dr. Donald D. Horward, and (for political/social factors) Dr. Owen Connelly, as well as Dr. Gunther E. Rothenberg. And, of course, there is Dr. David G. Chandler.

Elsewhere, I have been especially interested in Lt. Col. Jack Gill's work -- his With Eagles to Glory had the rare quality of being both a first book and a definitive one. Two books I'm looking forward to reading are Christopher Duffy's on the early campaigns (1796-1800) in Northern Italy and Switzerland, and Peter Hofschroer's on the Prussian side of the Waterloo campaign -- which undoubtedly will produce Oxford-accented screams of protest! Wargaming is not my hobby, but I have been impressed by the historical background Ed Wimble gives his "Clash of Arms" games. And I admire George F. Nafziger's order-of-battle work.

Having written all that, I'm certain I've overlooked someone -- more likely, several someones -- deserving. Please, gentlemen, accept my apologies for that.

Looking back over your own education, preparation and career, would you change anything if you could relive it?

ELTING: No. I have been very fortunate in always finding pleasure and new knowledge in whatever duties I was assigned.

The hardback version of Swords Around A Throne, copyrighted in 1988, is now out of print. In retrospect, do you have any new perspectives on its contents or desire to make a revised edition?

ELTING: There is nothing that I would change about Swords -- think I got most of the "bones" of the business properly assembled then. Fleshing them out completely might take a whole bookshelf. I've accumulated chunks of interesting additional material during these past nine years -- if I ever can get volume III of Napoleonic Uniforms launched, I may try flogging myself into some sort of More Swords.

Do you plan to undertake any new research projects?

ELTING: Still have hopes of somehow prodding the USMA Department of History into republishing A Military History and Atlas of the Napoleonic Wars. (Just got word that it may be moving.) Meanwhile, must get back to Napoleonic Uniforms III.

Can you explain how you made the leap from being shall we say, an "Armored" expert to being an expert on military uniforms?

ELTING: No "leap". And never was an "Armored expert" in the proper sense of that term, my service with armored units being largely limited to my duties as an intelligence officer (S-2) of a combat command (Combat Command "B", 8th Armored Division), or in various assignments with the Armored School at Fort Knox. Possibly my strong point was being able to put the ideas of real experts into effective language. Uniforms are just a side show -- interesting stuff, picked up while studying the history of a period. My Napoleonic Uniforms is a sort of appendix to my Swords Around A Throne.

How many years have you spent researching Napoleonic uniforms?

ELTING: Roughly, since 1951. As mentioned above, this has been minor part of my work which emphasizes: 1) strategy, tactics, and logistics; 2) the soldier --all aspects of his life and death.

Obviously, you are fascinated by Napoleonic uniforms as a research subject. Do you happen to own any?

ELTING: No. When you're in the service you limit the stuff you have to move on changes of station. Possibly oddly, have never been interested in acquiring uniforms.

Did all Napoleonic era armies wear uniforms or dress according to regulations?

ELTING: Yes, and "who can be positive?" Barring guerrilla forces, uniforms were a "must" for identification -- and even Spanish guerrillas tried to get some type of uniform. American militia, on occasion, didn't have any -- and behaved accordingly.

Have you ever participated in any re-enactments of Napoleonic battles or observed any re-enactments?

ELTING: One -- last May [1996] at Milan, Italy, with Todd Fisher and Napoleonic Alliance group. There is something artificial about the best re-enactments.

What does it take to become a successful Napoleonic author?

ELTING: It's not easy, even if you're one of those rarely gifted people -- I wasn't -- to whom it comes naturally.

First, it takes a lot of that old-style quality our ancestors called "stick-to-it-ness". You have to be prepared to see junk published and praised while your own careful work collects rejection slips. (Only God Almighty could understand what criteria too many publishers and book clubs use in making their selections. The History Book Club's September [1997] "main selection" will be a splendid example of this irresponsibility.)

Second, master the strengths of our "English tongue" the world's most flexible and effective language. It can make the past come alive again under your pen. No matter how excellent your research materials, they will wilt if crammed into a cramped vocabulary and stogy writing. Lastly, immerse yourself in the period you are studying -- and this is a long, hard task. You can't really write about battles and campaigns until you are familiar with the armies involved and the terrain over which they fought.

"Walking" the terrain is excellent, when you can, but you'll also need a contemporary map -- in many cases the topography has changed considerably -- rivers canalized, hills leveled, winding country roads replaced by straight superhighways, forests cut down, swamps drained, villages replaced by major towns or abandoned.

Also try to secure a military dictionary for your period -- they're scarce, but usually you can find something. Remember that word definitions change: in the last century "pretty", "stout", and "nervous" -- once complimentary terms for a soldier -- have become derogatory. Other military terms, having become technologically obsolete, have vanished; in 1940 the U.S. Army still had units of horse-drawn artillery; by the 1950s USMA cadets didn't have the least idea of how it functioned -- caisson, limber hitch, and lead, swing, and wheel terms were not in their vocabularies. (In that connection, if your work is before 1940, learn a bit about horses and mules.)

Education is an increasingly "iffy" help, at least until you get into college. Even too many college history courses are of the feel-good, make-pretty, political/ethically/ideologically correct variety. But there are competent professors -- many, if not most, fellow members of our Napoleonic Alliance --who can get you started off on the right foot, if you can meet their necessarily severe requirements.

Learn how to study; develop an analytical thought process in judging research material: Is this original? Was this report/biography written soon after the events described? Was it done by the responsible individual or by a relative or ghost writer? Was it written under any type of political/ideological censorship -- as anything published 1815-1830 in Bourbon-ruled France definitely was? Is the author qualified by experience?

Do you see military experience as being absolutely essential for a scholar?

ELTING: Military service can be a definite help, even if it does not involve exposure to hostile malice of the ball cartridge variety. The knowledge, even if only from a worm's eye view, of how an army lives, moves, and is organized --especially if it includes night marches down strange roads in the rain, loss of sleep, and possibly cold rations or even missed meals -- certainly will help you to a better understanding of soldiers gone before. Our present lives of paved roads, air-conditioned comfort, and water, power, light, and heat available at the turning of a switch separate us more than we realize from the life they accepted and endured.

Take, for example, Custer's "last stand". Many excellent historians have written on it; archaeologists have screened the battlefield. But I doubt if any of them ever commanded a mounted unit or knew the problems of forced marches and dry camps. The actual facts are simple -- 200 tired solders on tired horses caught by 2,000 fresh warriors on fresh ponies. It didn't last long, but -- if the Indians had been Confederate cavalry -- it would have been over in fifteen minutes!

Are there rules of etiquette governing solicitation of help from professionals?

ELTING: Most established historians are ready to offer advice to those aspirants who know and can clearly state a research problem. Get your ducks lined up before you request such help, and so make that problem as simple as possible. Never, without prior permission, send off a copy of your putative masterpiece with the request that it be read and evaluated.

Would you urge people to attend conferences?

ELTING: Conferences are usually helpful; the after-hours bull sessions in the bar are sometimes as rewarding as the formal presentations -- the chance to "rub brains" with other historians should be seized whenever possible.

So how would summarize the secret to your remarkable success?

ELTING: Once again, it is hard work, and Lady Luck is a lively and very fickle wench. But there are many roads to success. Our mentor, Dr. Harold T. Parker, has described his academic one [Napoleon #7]. I had no college courses on French history. I was self-educated, without the least guidance, completely isolated from the academic community during my formative years -- and one damn hard road that was, full of detours, blind canyons, and wrong forks taken.

Today, things are easier, but there's a lot more misinformation to sift out. Keep trying. If you meet rebuffs -- well, rally your grenadiers about their riddled eagles and go up that battered slope again! Just don't expect to make a living out of it.

Despite the fact that so much has already been written on the subject, what opportunities for Napoleonic research and popularization exist today?

ELTING: 1) A study -- and this will be long, difficult work -- of the intelligence systems of the Napoleonic period and their operations;

2) Logistics of the 1812 campaign. Sifting of personal accounts -- as in Paul Britten Austin's 3-volume collection of them -- suggests that a lot more was done, or at least attempted, than generally recognized.

A Tribute to John R. Elting