from Bob Bosscher

Adding my two bits to this thread, I personally feel that youth is deterred from both railway modelling and wargaming by the lack of flexibility that is now shown in these hobbies. Back in the late sixties when I first became interested in railways, and later wargames, there was a lot less rigorous attention to detail. This managed to instill an atmosphere of fun in the hobbies. These days I find that there is an attitude that if the military unit is not perfectly authentic in detail and use, or the model railway is not a exact representation of a certain line at a specific date, then it is considered inadequate. This to the point that one is deterred from even trying to start a project due to the immense amount of research that is needed before the uniform jacket is painted or railroad tie laid and the obvious realisation that some critic will always point out a fault in your unit or layout.

It is probably this same reason that prevents the transition from the fantasy gaming of early teens to the more "serious" approach to wargames. But whom amongst us who follow the strict regimes of the hobby are not still thrilled by the battles described in Grant's "Grand Dutchy of Lorraine" or Featherstone's "Hyperborian" campaigns. Railway modellers amongst us could just as easily suggest Peter Denny's "Buckingham Great Central" or John Allen's "Gorre and Daphetid". These were fictional and fun projects which did not detract from the hobby's goals as they were all exquisitely modelled and well executed.

On the wargames side, though I confess to not having read any fantasy gaming rules, I have been put off many periods by the sheer complexity that has been written into the more recent sets of rules. I am not saying that the using extensive detail is wrong, but I am suggesting that an easier starting platform should be created to encourage "new players". Adding further detail should be encouraged but initially should be optional, players should be able to draw the line at the level of detail at which they want to play and not have authenticity thrust upon then for authenticity's sake.

from Brian Hodson

The point here is that historical gamers will get further by bringing in "new," rather than specifically "young" faces. There is nothing in this comment that should necessarily indicate any disrespect for the "young" faces who appear around the table as "new" players.

While some comments have popped up here and again indicating judgements regarding the relative qualities of gamers from different age groups or interests, the consensus appears to be that historical gamers:

1) may or may not find that fantasy gamers will want to join them,
2) should recognize that fantasy gamers are not necessarily "naturally inclined" to join historical gamers,
3) should not necessarily, on the other hand, reject fantasy gamers out-of-hand as having no potential interest in historical games,
4) need to find ways to open their games to a wider audience in order to bring in more players and keep the hobby going strong.

There are no implied judgements about the personal qualities of "young" or "Warhammer" or "fantasy" players in any of these statements.

Build it and they will come -- or they won't.

from Rosemary Jones

'Convenience' does seem to be the buzzword of the times. Many times I've been in model shops and seen children being bought train 'sets' rather than individual units and it's the same with Games Workshop - you can walk in the shop and in 10 minutes (or less) have everything you need to play a game. And yet on this list (and what I've seen with my husband's experiences) it's always a case of 'I've bought so-and-so rules, now which figures do I use?' or 'I've just got hold of such-and-such figures and what are the best rules to use with them.' Think of most teen-agers and you'll think of someone who 'can't be bothered'. For those of us in Britain, how many times have you heard that Harry Enfield's Kevin the teenager reminds someone of their son/nephew etc? I know that it fitted the description of one of my nephews!

It's also a matter of patience - many teenagers don't want to spend hours researching what a particular uniform was like, which is probably why fantasy is more popular. Again, look at influences - a teenager is more likely to go and see the new Star Wars film than watch a costume drama, and how many historical films have been released lately that would interest younger people, and inspire them to recreate what they've seen in a wargame? Not many, I think.

Also, the model railway hobby has two distinct levels - there are toy railways for children (like Thomas the Tank Engine) and the more serious stuff for collectors etc. The two co-exist quite happily and are sold together in model shops. Apply this situation to wargaming and there'sa distinct difference - Games Workshop is seen as toys and looked down upon by many wargamers (I only have to look at this list to see that) but it is popular among children. But by decrying Games Workshop you've alienated a lot of potential wargamers. On a recent visit to our local GW the manager asked which figures my husband was interested in and he replied that he mostly did historical wargaming. The manager was very interested in this because a lot of his customers had been asking where they could obtain historical figures. Hopefully he can now tell his customers where to find them. But it does show that the interest is there but not the information.

More co-operation is needed in the hobby. And again this goes back to manufacturers - buy a Hornby '00' train and you can go round to your friend's and run it on his Peco '00' railway, buy a Foundry 25mm army and play it against your friend's Minifigs 25mm army - not exactly the same is it? Figures are different sizes, bases are different sizes, and then of course you have to agree on which rules you're using..not exactly the most convenient of hobbies..

from Phil Dutre

This subject comes up regularly, not only in this newsgroup, but also in the reader's letters pages of magazines. And frankly, I don't know what all the fuzz is about.

Judging these reactions, it always seems that people tend to put gamers in one of two groups: the old 50+ player who has a profound interest in history and condemns Warhammer as evil and is fond of using DBM, and sees wargaming primarily as a study of history and refuses to touch SF/F; and the teenage kids who swears by Dark Angel Supermarines on Jetbikes from Outer Space and even further. And it is the older player who wonders why his hobby is not attractive to the kids. And usually, the older player tries to lure the kids with some history lessons, a DBA game, and some crappy terrain (I've seen it happen - another player lost!).

The problem is that these two groups are two extremes of the waraming spectrum. I don't consider myself being part of either group. I'm a wargamer (32 years old) who is interested in good scenario-driven games, whether they are historical or SF/F. I don't play DBM nor Warhammer, because they don't provide what I seek in wargaming, that is, primarily fun games with a touch of history or popular SF/F thrown in. If it learns you something about history, that's a bonus, but not the goal. I play Brother vs Brother, Darkest Africa skirmishes, Rapid Fire, Old West gunfights, Full Thrust, Dirtside II, Fantasy Rules!. And from my point of view, I don't have a problem finding new players, in any age group. Why? Because we are not fanatic about our particular purist approach, whether it is the historical DBM school or the fantasy Warhammer school.

Historical and SF/F are not that different as some people believe. Sure, the ends of the spectrum are different, but there is a whole class of games which form nice crossovers. Dirtside II is 6mm SF ground warfare, which is very similar to 20th century modern warfare. Man'O War is a fantasy naval game, which can also be perfectly used to play medieval or napoleonic naval. It's exactly this style of rulesets that can link both genres. 90% of all wargamers I know play both historicals and SF/F.

When a new player shows up, and wants to try something out, I'm always amazed when people on this group advise him to start with DBA. It's the best way not to attract new players. DBA/DBM is a niche style of play, it is never going to attract the big crowds (there are exceptions, of course). What is the good way then? The new style adopted by the Foundry (Darkest Africa & Pirates) has, I believe, a very good chance of attracting new blood. It has attractive historical themes, the potential for some roleplaying, you can add some fictional elements, and you don't need tons of figures to set up a game. In my view, this will provide a new impulse to wargaming, bringing historicals and SF/F even closer.

As you would have guessed by now, I'm not a big fan of DBM. Although I can see its merits (tournaments, cheap, single ruleset for ancients, ...) it is a very specialized wargaming style, and one of its disadvantages certainly is that it fails to make new people enthusiastic about the hobby.

What I do see is that once someone thinks wargaming is for him, and starts to explore different periods and styles, that some of them like the DBM approach and take part in it. And that's fine, every gamer plays what suits him best.

To conclude, I don't feel that a hobby as wargaming will die. Of course, particular gaming groups will die, because the players are getting older, and eventually die or quit. But in the mean time, there is probably another gaming group in the same town with younger players that have picked up the hobby, without the other group knowing it. People tend to play and hang out with others who are more or less the same age. This can give a very distorted view if you're part of the older group.

But even if wargaming would fail to attract new players, so what? It's only a hobby. You can't force people to play wargames. A hobby is a living community of people. If it dies out because of lack of interest, too bad. At least the players who played it did have a great time!

from Martin J. Blow

Off and on lately I've been noticing some mention being made on this NG of how difficult or how essential it is that young people be "recruited" into historical miniatures. I think we grey-beards are over-reacting. A lot.

Kids don't want to play with a bunch of stodgy old adults who will lecture them and bore them and intimidate them. They get enough of that at school - where they like it even less. So they dress and act in a way and play game systems historical gamers 'hate' - and it keeps us away. In droves. If you're serious about recruiting young people into the historical hobby be prepared to mentor. A lot. And if you're not prepared to invite a snot-nosed, disrespectful teenager over to your house to play games with you and your adult friends, then don't try and recruit him. Leave him be. Let him play Warhammer or whatever else he and his friends are playing right now.

You'll get him when he's bigger. When he's graduated college and has a job and a wife and toddling kids and a whopper of a mortgage of his own. Because he's already a miniature gamer - collecting and painting and pushing toy soldiers is something he's done since he was a wee tad. And soon enough he's going to realize he's got nothing in common with the teenagers playing the same games he once devoted so much time too. When he's looking not just for games to play, but for adult friendship - that's when, often as not, he'll find you.

If you still intend to embark upon the effort to try and recruit the youngsters, maybe you should try and play their games. Let them teach you. Don't be judgmental and ridicule their favorite system - don't leap out of your skin at the prices they are expected to pay. Don't fall over in a faint when you see them dump out a pile of unpainted pewter figures The glare! My eyes! My eyes!) onto the table. Just take a deep breath, relax and be in the moment - play the game, don't be a mean old piece of dried-up excrement who can't stop bitching about the olden days. They don't care. And neither should you.

Let them kick your ass and be gracious about it. It's just a game and they're just kids. And once they realize, that despite your having the apperance of a doddering old fool, you're pretty much the same as them, you'll maybe have more success at recruitment.

I'm forty. And right now 48 Hungarian infantry in their pretty sky-blue breeches are keeping time on my painting table alongside a twenty man BloodBowl ork team decked out in full Goff regalia. And I don't know which ones will grace the field of honor first.

Just my two cents worth.

From Bob

I so disagree with this !

Where/when in the world was it decreed that historical gamers had to go out and recruit?

If you want to be a recruiter, join the military, or the moonies.

My experience has been that you get just as many or more players who actually look you up because they're interested in the subject than you ever get by going out begging FURP's to come play with you.

This hobby has been around for longer than any of us and will continue long after we're gone. With or without fantasy converts.

It's not worth the wasted time of trying to coax a person into enjoying something, all the while having a miserable time yourself because they really aren't interested.

I'm a historic gamer. No amount of coaxing or begging is going to cause me to enjoy a 40K game. I expect the reverse is true too. From Mark Levine

Instead of recruiting, I'd like to suggest that those historical gamers who have figures that they no longer use/need/want, and who aren't desperate for funds, donate their "reserves" to a school based gaming club via the club's teacher/adviser. Rather than selling for ten cents on the dollar or swapping for more figures you may not ever use you can get a tax deduction and perhaps give some encouragement to those kids who have already expressed an interest in historical games. Just my $.02.